When You Undervalue Yourself, You Undervalue Your Care Interview with Scott Emmems [Ep #192]

SPEAKER: We’re talking about all things, you and your value and are you actually bringing that value to the table to treat your patients or clients the way you should be. Stay tuned. 

Hey guys! Andrea here, thank you again so much for tuning in and continuing to download and let me know how much you are loving these episodes. I appreciate it and I love hearing from you and I really do hope that you listen to last week’s episode podcast, then enjoy. We are almost at episode 200, but last episode, you know what? Even now, I’m still thinking back on what a phenomenal growth moment that was and I really want to make sure that you listen to that. So go back and listen to last week’s episode when you can. Make sure that you are getting those auto-downloads on your phone. But today I brought on a guest. Every once in a while I have guests on and they have to really be speaking the language that I want you guys to hear and they also need to be looking at the industry from a new angle so I don’t just let anybody come on the podcast. A lot of people reach out and a lot of times I say no, but I really liked Scott. He reached out to me over Instagram and we just got to chatting. We had a meeting prior to committing to the podcast and I just love the energy about him. And I love where he’s coming from.

So he is coming on to talk about the different ways that you need to be breaking out of your practitioner bubble and I really did a great reel that I got probably one of the highest downloads on my Instagram already @andreamaximnd on breaking the practitioner bubble and basically just being you. Now, we’re not talking about messaging or anything like that today. We’re talking about what are the different ways that you can break out of the antiquated way that your school is training you as a practitioner. And start leaning into more modernized ways of running your business. And so we’re going to be talking about concierge medicine which is basically like a membership model. We’re going to be talking about why a lot of the times when you’re undervaluing yourself, your services, your products, your techniques, and your equipment. Your patients are actually wanting, like they’re wallets are open there, ready to pay for their health because that is where their value lies and how important for you is to step in to that. And then we just have a general conversation. So without further ado, we’re going to jump right into this interview. 

ANDREA: Hey Scott! Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Why don’t you take a moment to introduce who you are and what brought you here today. 

SCOTT: Thank you. My name is Scott Emmens and I’m the current co-founder and CEO of NB Logic Health. What brought me here today, to this journey was spending 25 years in both the biotechnic pharmaceutical industry and then my personal passion with health and wellness wellbeing. And so recently I had the opportunity to sell a company that I co-founded. And my partner and I decided that it was time to get into health and wellness and we created the NB Logic Health. And I’m so pleased to be getting in your podcast today with you. 

ANDREA: Cool. And we’re going to be talking all about value and perceived value, and when we were talking earlier we were talking about a few things which I wanted to lead right into. Which is where this blocker, where this conception, that practitioners make with regards to creating value, creates a unique structure to their business. The perceived value of investing for patients, for business growth, for scaling, and as you’re mentioning is it basically all starts in the school. It all starts in how they are being indoctrinated. So what are some of the big flaws that you are seeing with new practitioners, feeling like they have to abide by the rules the way that they were taught and therefore they don’t ever open up their to expansion. 

SCOTT: Well, I think it does start with how the system works; and it starts with how am I going to open up my practice? And in the US, one of the most important things that you need to understand is the CPT and the eyes of the 10 coding system. And so everything that goes to insurance and Medicare or Medicaid must go through the CPT eyes of the 10 coding process, it must be to provide the insurance plan. So that’s the general indoctrination; it’s not formularity, it’s not part of the plan, it’s not for it. I don’t know how to do it or I have just been taught, this is the only way to do it. And frankly that really is the way that everyone perceived the industry is. The patient will come in, I will look at the HR records, I will see the insurance they have, I will an evaluation, I will make a diagnosis, I will move to code and I will utilize whatever prescription or therapies that might be appropriate, but also make sure that you’re covered or provided by the insurance plan and mirror up with those codes. 

And that in itself could take very skillful physicians to learn that. And let’s face it, doctors go to school, medical school for the most part to heal people and to treat people and so now having to memorize coding systems, insurance plans and EHR systems that don’t always work so synergist together. That begins this sort of paradigm block, they’re kind of stuck into that system and indoctrinate too, and they weren’t taught that other side. And as you and I had spoken about your previous podcast, about how much business reacting that was taught in med school. There’s some but very limited, if you’re going to skip a class to sort of keep up if you will, that’s probably when you skip. Right? So I think that’s where it really starts. 

ANDREA: And how limiting even just hearing you describe it, how limiting you practice that already puts a practitioner into whether like ‘ok, I don’t have any business acumen, I only going to rinse and repeat what I know to be true and ok, because I learned it in school and I’m afraid to learn a new technique, to invest in a new diagnostics software, to create a new model of healthcare. Because I didn’t learn it in school, therefore I’m afraid either I’m going to get slapped on the wrist, I’m going to get flagged or something like that.’ And I know youth come across some really innovative models of healthcare that are starting to evolve now. And I would love for you to just share like one of the things that we’re trying with the concierge model. Which is I think a membership style model which quite frankly is the future of all business. If you look at where all big box businesses are trending, so describe that the concierge model. 

SCOTT: Yes, so this caught me a little bit off guard the first time I heard about it. I was speaking with one of the physicians that we work very closely with. And we were having a discussion about a new application that we’re coming up with that measures 2500 different biometric markers depression and cognitive dysfunction. And I’ve heard me get on was ‘Oh Scott that would be great for the concierge medicine.’ And I asked ‘what is that?’ I knew about that for the Hollywood folks. People that are wealthy, well to do people, that have their own physician. But I didn’t realize it would come down to the average person on the street. So I said ‘Well, there’s a couple of companies that have this subscription model where you pay between $199 up to 4 or 500 dollars with the top range each month getting on what services you would like. 

She said for example you might spend $300 a month, for that $300 a month you get a 3 or 4, that gets 10 visits a month. 3 live visits for a month plus all prescriptions written, all test written. You don’t have to come by the office to do that. So it’s sort of having a physician on call for all of your basic needs. And specifically for things like going on a vacation, how do you get to your doctor? You can’t get an appointment, so now you have this cushion on. Well, if something happens or our way on vacation we got our doctor to tell us about our health, we got our visits, we got our visits prescriptions. And that has really been exploding. And so I’ve watched a couple of promotion videos, as I was watching I was ‘what? I think I might want to have that service.’ And I have it signed up for it, 99 a month for a family of 4 or depending on the services I might really consider that. 

And I think as huge as free wine, the clock a couple of years ago, just a year ago that would’ve been almost unheard of. The traditional way ‘who’s going to do that?’ Now, I’m thinking a lot of people are doing that in the model description rolling quickly here in the US and it’s become very successful. 

ANDREA: And there’s a few key reasons why I think that is such a beautiful model and it’s again so outside of the grain. Something that we would never even be talked about in school and I know for the Canadians that are listening. This isn’t something that we can necessarily implement across all provinces but I’m glad to hear that it’s at least very popular in the states. I lost my train of thought—I completely lost it. Where was I going with that? 

SCOTT: You were I think making a point that in Canada this particular thing isn’t available. But you might be able to utilize a different methodology or you might be able to do something in that similar vein of subscription service. To provide information education to patients or something along that line. 

ANDREA: Right. So I’ll take you from a different place, I completely lost it but anyways that happens, we’re alive. This is just how it’s going to go. But the concierge model is such a beautiful model because and I think this is where I wanted to go is that it starts to eliminate the absent flows and that is one of the biggest issues that practitioners suffer from is they never know when that next flow is going to happen. They will always be afraid they’re going to be in an ebb and will start creating residual income, on-going income through a membership model type healthcare system. That is a beautiful way to then know ok my cash flow is going to be steady every single month. Because I have so many people on this rotating door. 

Now, you could do the same thing without necessarily having it on as a concierge model, but you could do this with a program. You could do this with just booking your patients in every single month or every 4 weeks and just starting to inherently do that. Which any province, any state can do, we just again get in our own way and we’re like oh but I don’t think someone would want to have an on-going appointment. So the other key thing that you brought up though is that diagnostic machine that measures the 20 different health markers or 28. Here’s another beautiful way for you to stand out, be unique, offer something that patients can’t do on their own and that’s what I’m always looking for with my business. What is something I can offer them that they can’t learn online or download for free, or self asses? What are some unique things that we can start to offer and yet one is not taught in school so practitioners tend to be closed off for two, they’re afraid of making the investment. So let’s talk about that. Say I know you have that experience with practitioners in investing in this type of diagnostic tools. 

SCOTT: Yes, definitely. I think positions have been burned a few times. And then there’s also that learning curve. So sometimes, it’s not that they’re being burned, it’s sort of maybe it is easier than it is, and that learning curve might be more challenging than it is. So there are some real life things that you got to overcome but you got to, eat some of that task like. So I speak of many positions about how you got that recreating a webinar. I want to just take a step back to that for just a moment, then we go forward. 

ANDREA: Sure.

SCOTT: Because I think that is a fundamental stress position, from my perspective. Having spoken to them and then try to engage and interact with them. I can see that sometimes they want to be engaged, they want to be taking that next discussion point with me but they’re also here to pay the patient background. They’re getting a little anxious and so I fully appreciate that because that’s what they want to do is take care of our patients. But when they have this safety and a recurring revenue that they can count on they can give themselves a little bit of space and have the best possible work life bounce with themselves, but also the best possible attendethness to the patients and really be engaged with them and that’s helpful for their practice. I think that’s my perspective. 

The positions that have those models seem to be able to spend a little more time with the patients and they’re a little more relaxed. And I think that comes across so that’s one point is that recreating revenue is a benefit. Not just the position, the profit standpoint but it benefits the patients, the physicians, the ability to relax and be there. And then also they’re not in the office, they don’t worry about it and go have a good time and really get the hour. In terms of offering these unique services, the biometric feedback is a great example but that we’re offering. And I was speaking with a physician about this early on this offering and we underbid the price point of this application. And was discussing, and I was very interested with the application because you can get day to day data on depression, cognitive decline and stress. You can do it once a day or once a month but the point is it allows the doctor and the patient to have a very updated state of mental health of that patient. So I’m trying to try the medication up or down, especially in psychiatric medications. They give a delicate and very narrow index well this will help speed you to that point of care which could save the patient money, new money and time and stress and anxiety. 

So to me that was like self-study in a month, seems feasible. Now he thought well I don’t think my patients will pay 6 thousand for that. We’ll only come to find out that we were then able to get patients to see the value in it through advertising it with another large healthcare organization. And we’re getting 99 a month and then we realize we have another couple of features and people are saying yeah we’re paying 10 dollars for those other features, so we add those features. So now we’re 2999, and I said well I really underestimated and then I found an application called NewCome, which is not mine. It’s a great application, it’s a meditation application and I think don’t call me despite, I think it’s somewhere either $69 a month but if you buy for the year it’s like $30 a month. But it’s a meditation app, it’s a great meditation app, that’s all patients really have to pay just for a meditation. This is a medical grade application that actually helps you scream real issues and real things that are going on patients a lot. I think you and I are valuable, but it just goes to show you that if you deliver a product that you need and provide an aid with the patient and the doctor, the people that need it and can afford it will. 

And there’s always ways—I know when my company and most other companies have someone they can afford and really need it will make those exceptions. And I think that’s what positions are also going to hear from people like myself that hey if you got patients that can afford it, we’ll give those patients the things that they needed. 

ANDREA: Right, so this brings up a really important conversation about making really harmful assumptions again based off of an emotional response. So that practitioner that said no I don’t think my patients will do this. When off of no data, had no prior experience to show that was true and didn’t even like times we form an investment, I will email my list or my patients and say hey I’m thinking about bringing this in; who would be interested let me know. But it’s so sad I find when practitioners are just like nope, I don’t think my patients are going to like it. Most likely because they’re not either bought into the idea, they don’t want to learn it. Or just again making decisions based on emotion without having any truth. And it’s this type of habit that I think really gets practitioners into this sticky place where they’re constantly just trying to squeeze every last drop out of this one little thing that they have been doing their whole career. And when that drop runs dry then that’s when the panic really starts to happen, instead of being like ‘ok I wonder let me just ask people; hey! Would this be of interest to you?’ and so how often are you seeing practitioners that you’re talking with and interacting with even the ones that you’ve interviewed on your podcast and certainly plugged your podcast name and we’ll put the link in the show notes. Were these assumptions really limiting their potential growth? 

SCOTT: How often do I see that? I would say it’s probably close to 70% of the time, maybe a little higher than that, it’s pretty high. And I think where it comes from is to think about the whole system, the insurance company will spend at least using generic first. My patients don’t want to spend a big co-pay, when they go to the pharmacy and they have a big co-pay they yell at the pharmacist and they go back and yell at the doctor. Or they call the office and say ‘I can’t afford this, I don’t want to spend so much…’ so hearing these price pressures from the insurance company, from the patients and I think that mentality sticks around. I think what they’re not seeing is they’re not kind of things like patients look at prescriptions and co-pay as sort of like ‘why should I have to pay the copay.’ So when they do their shot. But if you do something totally unique, completely different than outside the parallel, outside the insurance world. Right? This is a cash offer or this is an additional thing offered to my patients that’s very unique. Suddenly that value point changes completely the whole mindset changes. It’s interesting like there’s certain things that you notice you’re paying like heat or gas, or my power bill. Right? It’s really not that much money per month to get gas and electric, and water. When I think about it like right into my home but my wife sees that bill when she comes in the first thing that she says ‘who has been using the heater?’

ANDREA: Turn off, turn off all the lights! 

SCOTT: My cell phone bill is bigger than my heating bill, I pay $400 a month for cell phones for the family. But you take that cellphone as invaluable, you have to have it and I guess $400 that much won’t pay it. So I think value is a relative base on your paradigms, that’s part of why relations get kind of mired up in that and why patients do too. So I think you have to just take a step back and say what is it that I’m offering? The other thing I see often are more often on the supplements side of the business which is biologic health and offer position grade, FDA, GMP certified USA facilities where we manufacture our products. And physicians will say things like ‘well I don’t want to be like a salesperson, I don’t want to sell something.’ And so I totally recognize that, I don’t mind a physician being a sales person either, that’s not a role. But when we go through that, that’s when we demand nutritional supplements. Most of the time we’ll say ‘yes I do.’ I say ok, well when and why do you do that? Let’s say a patient out on stat, you and I can be a co-person? Ok would you prefer that they go to some random place and get a random brand with an unknown safety party or anything? Would you prefer they get something from you, that you know is going to get them that they need. That’s any GMP facility, that your patients are going to get that top quality which one of those would you prefer? 

And when you have that conversation, I think the light goes ‘you know what? I’m just saying hey this is the brand I recommend. You are free to get any brand you like, but this is the brand I recommend. 

ANDREA: Yeah. And that’s the reframe that I’m really hoping people that are listening, people that are resonating with this conversation are starting to recognize if you aren’t selling. You aren’t forcing anyone’s hand, but it is your job to show them all of the choices. Because that’s how they make an educated choice, and it is your job to serve them with the best quality and safe products because we all know just like you said, they will find these products. You write it down on the list, they will find it; and they will find the wrong ones, they will find the cheapest ones, and then they’re going to think that you’re not doing a good job because they don’t feel better. 

SCOTT: We’ll take it a step further, they’re going to go get some supplements and they’re not even going to know what they are. Because well a lot of patients are ordering a lot of things for amazon, they’re getting fish out of it. What’s going on with your cholesterol, because they’re not getting good fish around. Or maybe they don’t need that. Who knows? Right? 

Whether taking a folate or taking too much and that’s not reacting to all of that. Or whether taking a St. Johnson, or which we could have a major action with some real medication. So you want to be engaged in something there because it’s a $40 plain industry. And more now than ever, I can tell my patients are seeking out top bottle brands. You’d be amazed at how educated the consumers are these days. I have phone calls and they say ‘where was that ingredient source from? I’m like ‘Oh it was sourced from France.’ ‘Well, where in France?’ ‘Ok? Let me get the certificate of authentication, what province, what exact location. But they really want to see that it’s clean, they’re tested, they’re verified. I think that’s a great thing for the industry frankly. But they are really well educated, they are going out there and doing a lot of things and getting on a substance. And I think we’ve got to recognize that piece of it, because that is a part that you want to at least eye on if nothing else. 

ANDREA: And that actually brings up something I happened to just hear yesterday and that was about marketing and messaging. And how there’s this belief that the industry is saturated, and that it’s not that the industry is saturated, it’s just that they’re getting a lot more woke. They’re just getting a lot more complex, they’re getting a lot more knowledgeable. And so coming full circle, this is why it is so imperative that you get out of the status queue, you get out of the generic and start to offer some really unique things, unique services, unique products, unique models of care, unique supplement offers that they haven’t heard of before. Sophisticated was the word I was looking for, they’re just a lot more sophisticated. The audience is. 

So if you can offer them something that’s cool, something that they as I said, can’t get from anywhere else, then you will win. And inherently your business starts to stand out, and inherently you start to make more consistent revenue because you could make a concierge model out of supplements quite frankly you can make a concierge model out of the scans that you were describing, with that machine that you were describing. I apologize I didn’t pick up on the name. But these are really fantastic things that can easily be implemented that don’t go against the regulatory boards but allow the practitioner to again, step up in a different way. Stop making the assumptions that your patients can’t or won’t buy and present all the options. Do you have anything else, any other personal experiences where you’ve seen this inherent like they can’t afford it assumption? Or were practitioners really missing out on some key value that they can be offering? 

SCOTT: Yeah, I think there is another one. It goes back to the fear factor and stops their hand, and if I don’t know, this is something that became very popular in the United States, that’s called remote patient monitoring. Are you familiar with that? 

ANDREA: No, not at least but with that language. With those words. 

SCOTT: So before COVID, there was remote patient monitoring and it was starting to become more commonplace. And what that is, a lot of these States like Cardavastan, hypertension for example, metabolic disease like diabetes, obesity. Those chronic things that you want to measure and Medicare recognized that there was a value in keeping a closer watch on things like weight, glucose and your blood pressure. And so they gave sort of a little payment assistance; the position was not willing to provide patients with the biopsies at home and measure those measurements. A lot of computer systems so they will be kind of a portal where they can see their patient population. In that way the patient didn’t have to come in every 2 weeks to get the blood pressure drive. Now we’re in and now we’re back, so they just saw a lot of waste of time, space, energy and money so they have this program. 

When COVID came around, right before that really it accelerated what’s called the CMS. We want to give more money to accept programs. Because the doctor said just we’re adopting it frankly it might have been a waste it’s time and energy. Well, when that happens, the number of new companies, at first there would be money to be made here. For the physicians we can create real software and really give them top notch devices. So that’s another piece of the ability of our business as well and I see positions hesitant to do that because they feel like they’re going to have a lot of eyeballs for them from the State. But it’s rather new that’s legit, it’s rather new that CMS wants to have if they’re doing the work. Because if they can keep the patient from going to the hospital, that’s saving them $45,000. If you catch a patient having hypertensive episodes or hyperglycemia/ hypoglycemic episodes beforehand, that is a massive savings. Also it’s a major intervention in the health of the patient, and so that’s something that’s great for the patient, doctor, it’s passive observation. You don’t have to be on-call to be patient monitoring, you’re really getting a read out each couple days. And there’s this sort of bread bar if you’re alert, so it’s really a very simple way to give your patients a piece of mind. To make sure that you’re monitoring them especially Medicare patients who are 65 and older. And especially to have more commodities, it’s a great way to make revenue but also more importantly a great way to give the best care to your patients. And I think that’s what a no brainer wants, impossible when the position just resists completely. 

ANDREA: And I will say in Canada, at least in Ontario, I can’t speak to all provinces but I found that Ontario, our conventional system with regards to family medicine care just completely abandoned everybody. And this was where I think naturopathic medicine shines and can shine. And that’s all our patients want, is to know that they have a doctor in their corner who cares, who’s there for them when they need it but not overextending that boundary. And everything we’re talking about today is not passive revenue, you’re still actively engaged, you’re still actively doing the work. It’s not that you’re making money and then lounging on your couch. But you do just need to, especially in today’s day and age, you need to break out of this box that you’ve put yourself into because school dictated it. And find these really cool, unique, novel, very much legit ways to stand apart and quite frankly just provide your patients or clients with better healthcare. 

So Scott I am just so thankful that you came on and we have this conversation very openly, please let everybody know what your podcast is and what is all about. And if they want to reach out to you what are some of the best ways. 

SCOTT: Right. Thank you so much. So my podcast is called Health Noise and the title is we’re trying to cut through the noise of healthcare, it’s a little play on words. We also have a website called Health Noise as well, we’ll be starting around May, I hope it’s on May 10. We got about 5 reports so far hoping to get 10 completed before we launch. And you can also find us at the www.nblogic.com that’s our supplement line, that’s both prepositions that we would like to speak with us or just patients who want to see our products. And that’s really the best way to look up my company, you can reach me directly at my Instagram @longevityprotocol, that’s longevity protocol and I’ll shoot you those shout outs. 

ANDREA: Awesome. Thank you so much Scott. 

SCOTT: Andrea thank you, it’s a pleasure. I really enjoy myself. I hope to see you again soon. Take care. 

ANDREA: Alright guys! I hope you enjoy that, I hope you took some gold nuggets away from that, I hope it was insightful. And if you want to get a little bit more resources from me, learn a little bit more. Please go to maximizedbusiness.ca right at the very top. There are 2 powerful places you can go, one is to watch my free video training on how you can merge your practice online, even if you’re already virtual. I promise you, you will learn something from that. And it is just an hour so definitely go register for that and watch it all the way through. And then of course the maximized practitioner method handbook which is available for you to download and it walks you through a lot of the success blockers that you have, a lot of the things that you could easily be implementing. And then finally if there’s any way that I can support you book a call with me. I’ve had so many amazing practitioners who reach out and I love the conversations that I have when I talk to you guys. Because almost instantly based on your energy I know you are like gung-ho ready to make this happen, you are like taking that leap and letting that appear and I’d love practitioners who are willing to do the scary stuff, hold the fear with them and still take those leaps and it’s just so cool connecting with you guys, one on one in the virtual space. So do not hesitate to book that call and reach out. But check out those other resources and of course, if you get a moment to please leave a review on iTunes or basically any of the places where you’re listening to this and then reach out to me over DM and let me know how you’re doing, what topics you want to hear, or maybe you would like to be a guest on the show and have some really cool things to share. I love having you guys on and I love highlighting you too. Alright I will talk to you next week. I’m Andrea Maxim and I’m out.